(NOTE:
I'm tired up updating -- any readers can still interested in this sorry case can follow it themselves at Dawn's blog, under her post of Jan. 19. And no, she still has not apologized. Perhaps I ought to just make a donation to Planned Parenthood in her name to get some closure, and move on? Heh.)
This does not refer to the post below it, except for a similar outcome.
For nearly two years, I was a frequent commenter on a well-known Catholic
blogger's site. I don't share all of her views, but I enjoyed her site, and even bought her book. My opinions often clashed with those of the blogger and most of her
commenters, but I rarely felt any hostility there. And when I did, the blogger would remind her
commenters to be nice.
I was always very honest there, and very open about how I am raising my children.
Today, a commenter there observed, "L - your kid will wind up dead like Heath Ledger."
I replied,
I'm going to reply to you quickly before Dawn deletes your comment.What possible good could come of what you just said? What would make a person say something like that? Please think carefully about this. If you were really concerned about a child's welfare, and wanted to get through to the parents about something you think they are doing wrong, I advise you to stop using threats.But Dawn didn't delete the comment. Instead, she said,
A reasonable person could conclude that a child parented the way you claim to parent yours would indeed wind up like Heath Ledger.I am truly parenting my kids exactly the way I described on Dawn's blog, and here on my own blog.
And when I never return to Dawn's site, she will not have to waste any time wondering why.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
UPDATED: While I don't plan on going back to Dawn's site, for obvious reasons, a friend of mine emailed me Dawn's subsequent response, and follow-up comments:
Dawn said:
I am sorry that you feel that way.
You volunteered a great deal of information about your parenting choices. You wrote:
"If [my daughter] is old enough to procure it [contraception], she's old enough to "handle" it [sex]. I was a minor when I obtained hormonal birth control, and my parents did not need to know -- it was none of their business, and my daughter's sexual choices are none of mine."
In response to a question, "But would you allow your twelve-year-old to give up trying to do well in school, or stop eating vegetables, or become anorexic, without a fight, on the grounds that it is her right to do as she pleases with her life?" you wrote:
"Except for the anorexic part -- I have indeed."
In other words, you have stated that you have allowed your daughter to give up things that are extremely important for personal health and growth -- doing well in school and eating vegetables -- "without a fight."
Another commenter wrote to you, "But it seems to me that parents have a right, and indeed a duty, to fight with and for their children to persuade them of what is right. To do less is to abdicate the responsibilities of parenthood."
To which you responded:
"One cannot abdicate responsibilities that one has never accepted in the first place. I obviously have a very different idea of what my 'responsibilities' are, as a parent, than other people in this comment thread."
Again, a reasonable person could conclude that the child of a mother who admits having given up on her own child's health and well-being "without a fight" would indeed wind up like Heath Ledger.
You yourself introduced the topic of your own laissez-faire parenting in an effort to defend it. The onus is on you to explain why the life of a daughter whose own mother gives up on her well-being without a fight would not end in tragedy.
Dawn Eden Homepage 01.23.08 - 9:04 pm # "Again, a reasonable person could conclude that the child of a mother who admits having given up on her own child's health and well-being "without a fight" would indeed wind up like Heath Ledger."Dawn, I disagree very strongly.
Reasonable people should know better than amping up a disagreement about parenting attitudes with a pointlessly cruel reference to the lonely death of a celebrated young actor in (to date) ambiguous circumstances.
And reasonable people don't use refusing to a police a 12-year-old'saversion to vegetables as evidence of a mother's lethal indifference to her child's future.
Jody Tresidder 01.23.08 - 10:26 pm # It's not just vegetables, Jody, but the whole idea of denying that parents "have a right, and indeed a duty, to fight with and for their children to persuade them of what is right." And I do believe that, to use the other specific example, doing well in school is something extremely important to children's well-being. A parent who refuses to counter a child who is giving up on school is likely to end up with a troubled child. There are plenty of statistics to back this up.
Dawn Eden Homepage 01.23.08 - 10:33 pm # "Again, a reasonable person could conclude that the child of a mother who admits having given up on her own child's health and well-being "without a fight" would indeed wind up like Heath Ledger."
Wow.
But think about what "giving up" entails when it comes to kids, who are eternally changing their minds. Do you honestly think L. would allow her children to stop eating vegetables (or keeping up in school) if it got to the point where it was having a real impact on their health or mental well-being without seeking professional help? Didn't her anorexia answer show that? Step back for a second and consider human nature, not ideology.
So many debates here come down to how much control the government (neighbours?) should have over our lives. And it seems that nobody actually wants others to have the final say in how to conduct their family lives. So why shouldn't everyone be allowed to make their own parental decisions, as long as they're not genuinely abusive?
I really fear for how ugly this US election year will be. And I'm living in Canada.
Dawn, I've really respected your policy (and enforcement) of not allowing personal attacks on posters here. I can understand losing one's temper, but I am really disappointed by your attack on L., who seems to show you every courtesy here and whose only offence is in having opinions you don't like.
Terezia 01.23.08 - 11:27 pm # "The onus is on you to explain why the life of a daughter whose own mother gives up on her well-being without a fight would not end in tragedy.:
I truly feel bad if L was offended, but I agree with Dawn's sentiment, and don't feel that there was anything cruel or unfair in the way in which she cast it.
Joanne 01.23.08 - 11:39 pm # Terezia, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
L. has gone out of her way to give personal information about her parenting techniques and characterize herself as a "laissez-faire" parent. Now that a person has accused her of advocating a style of parenting that leads to tragedy, she is acting offended.
To my mind, of course when parents admit to "giving up" on their children rather than attempting to prevent them from making harmful life choices, their children will be more likely to suffer depression, sexually transmitted disease, unintended pregnancy, suicide, etc. That is a given.
This is a very personal issue to me. My mother gave up on me, condoning and even encouraging my sexual promiscuity, and I got so depressed and traumatized by my unhealthy lifestyle that I nearly killed myself. My father, while not condoning my dangerous behavior, also neglected to assert himself when he could have given me a strong message against having sex outside of marriage. It is only by the grace of God that I am alive, let alone free from sexually transmitted disease and without an abortion or an out-of-wedlock child.
If L. does not agree with this assessment, she is free to argue why her child will beat the odds of other children whose parents do not attempt to prevent them from making unhealthy life choices.
Dawn Eden Homepage 01.23.08 - 11:45 pm # -----------------------------------------------------(Note of apology to Homesick Home readers: Sorry if I am appearing to flay the flesh off a long-dead horse, but I will continue to post updates as long as I see them, as I await an apology from Dawn. I do not expect one, but I hope she surprises me.)"If L. does not agree with this assessment, she is free to argue why her child will beat the odds of other children whose parents do not attempt to prevent them from making unhealthy life choices."
With the greatest respect, Dawn, there is no parent who can plausibly promise the world that no harm will ever befall their child. And there is a nasty threat implicit in using the headline example of Heath Ledger as a warning to a mother on this blog that she's practically asking for the same ghastly, lonely death for her own kid.
L. has argued consistently from a thoughtful (& loving) personal position about the limits of parental rights over their children's decisions.That doesn't remotely oblige her to make empty boasts about how this is a guarantee of their future wellbeing!
Jody Tresidder 01.24.08 - 8:27 am # Dawn, I can understand how personal issues colour one's view, and I'm sorry if your upbringing was not a happy one.
But unless your parents are now raising L.'s children, you have a complete and intimate knowledge of the context in which L. parents, or you own a crystal ball, you have no way of knowing how L.'s children will turn out, and to make unqualified attacks like that doesn't do much for your case (or your credibility the next time you tell a nasty poster not to attack others).
I sincerely hope you're able to work through your parental issues in a way that brings you peace and allows you to see others' situations with a clearer eye. Projecting your disappointments in an unwarranted, nasty way on others who have been courteous to you really won't help that process.Good luck to you.
Terezia 01.24.08 - 10:07 am # Dawn, I am coming back one final time, to humbly ask you to apologize.
I do not expect you to apologize for condemning my values, and my belief that teenage sex isn't inherently evil. Nor do I expect you to apologize for calling some of my parenting choices "unhealthy" in your view, and I understand why you think they are.
Contrary to what you stated, I did not "go out of my way to characterize" myself as a "'laissez-faire' parent" -- another commenter characterized me as such. I responded that my kids don't think I'm a "laissez faire" parent at all -- in fact, they call me "The Mama Monster." And you know my nearly two years of commenting on your blog that I send all three of them to Catholic school, against the wishes of my anti-Christian husband. I don't think any Catholic school can be characterized as a "laissez-faire" environment.
Nor do I think I can be fairly characterized as "a mother who admits having given up on her own child's health and well-being," simply because I happen to view my parental responsibilities in a very different light than you and some of your commenters do. In fact, this is exactly the kind of topic on which I have had many a spirited, civil, debate on your blog, which is why I kept coming back to it.
I ask only that you apologize for agreeing with the commenter who told me, "your kid will end up dead."
If you see nothing threatening in that -- if you think it is nothing more than a "reasonable" conclusion rather than a vicious proclamation that harm is due to befall me, then truly, you are not the person I thought you were.
L. Homepage 01.24.08 - 11:19 am # FWIW, I've been lurking on this thread, and I do not see the comment in question as a threat.
It's the end of an if-then statement: Based on what you've said about your child-rearing concerns, if I understand them accurately, I predict your kid is going to end up dead. subtext, unhappily and early death, caused by bad habits not corrected by a concerned mother (or father, I suppose).
That's what I took from the comment. I do not see a personal threat to you, and have trouble making it into one.
One comment about Monster Mama put up against a whole lot of "that's none of my business what my child does" sort of postings - the many out weigh the few.
umm... This next bit is only about how you presented yourself in this discussion, ok?
What I took from your writing is that *You don't care what your child does*. You aren't interested in training her to think or be herself, or consider healthy choices, or maturity, or the simple fact that simply because one can do something, it's not always a good idea to actually do it.
I have no idea if that is what your life and child-rearing is *really*like. But that's what I got from what you wrote on this thread.
(FWIW, again, I've been on the receiving end of 'you're a bad parent' messages. Our kid turned out to be mentally ill, which in a way was a relief - the rages and fire-setting and all wasn't all our fault. We're struggling with limits and independence and choices now ourselves as she gets older - but her judgment is still sometimes worse than dreadful because of her illness.)
P.S.and, judging by what I hear of the local Catholic High Schools, yes they can be characterized as "laisse-faire".
Elaine 01.24.08 - 4:50 pm # L, What if an even younger girl, say eight or nine years old, went to a PL facility and requested birth control paraphernalia....What if they were your daughters? Would that make you reconsider your views?
I recall watching a Dateline NBC show where kids in Cambodia as young as five were engaging in sex with foreign pedophiles....What if it were a nine year old having sex with a 12 or 13 year old....It happens in this country, too....Whether one is 12 or 13, 8 or 9 years old (and younger), the same moral, ethical, and legal rules apply in this situation.....Ultimately, those who support PP's values put themselves on a collision course with common sense.....
NYC 01.24.08 - 5:24 pm # Elaine,You wrote of L's comments here: "What I took from your writing is that *You don't care what your child does*. You aren't interested in training her to think or be herself, or consider healthy choices...."
Here are three statements - excluding the "Monster Mama" description L's kids apply to her AND L's caveat that she would certainly take action over signs of anorexia - that L. made in this thread that do not support your reading.
Can you read these statements - and perhaps think again whether they are evidence L. doesn't "care" ?
1." I have only the right -- and the responsibility -- of teaching my children about the health risks and legal consequences of drugs, smoking and sex. But I realize at a certain point, I will have no control over what they do outside my home, anymore than my parents had control over me."
2."I now have an 11-year old daughter, and I admit I am VERY uncomfortable with the idea of her, or someone as young as she is, being sexually active. The vast majority of people this age are NOT mature enough for sexual relations, which is why the majority of them are not engaged in it."
3."I am certainly giving her much more information on the subject [of sex] than my parents gave me."
Jody Tresidder 01.24.08 - 6:32 pm #